The 3rd Page Interview(s)
the Interviews of Stew Albert - Part 2

The 3rd Page: The never-ending interview with your interviews continues.

Dear Stew,
My name is Joe Hurst. My partner, Tara Johnson, and I are competing
in National History Day - the topic is "Taking A Stand In History." We decided to do our project on the Youth International Party and would appreciate any help we could receive from you.

The 3rd Page: What's "National History Day?"

Stew: It's a national contest, run out of the U of Maryland. Powell's Books and others put up the prizes for Highschool kid's organized history projects. It can be essay or multi media style - and compete for scholarships. Sounds like those national science contests (or maybe Miss America).

Stew: Dig this one big 'mega-question' interview/exchange.

Joe: I would like to hear your take on 'what happened to the counter culture'? There seems to be a number of stock positions: (1) It was a capitalist marketing plot all along [The Conquest of Cool: Business Culture, Counter Culture, and the Rise of Hip Consumerism by Thomas Frank] or: (2) Grew up (sold out) and became conservative (citing Churchill's phrase about 'getting wiser & abandoning socialism') or: (3) Somehow became mainstream [Christopher Lasch, Culture of Narcissism, or more recently Andrew Bard Schmookler's Debating the Good Society: Bridging the moral divide..]. To me, Schmookler's book seems to almost immediately capitulate to an authoritarian trojan horse of 'good order'. Here, the counter culture emphasized liberty at the expense morality. To me, most of this fails to capture the complexity of what happened.

Stew: You do a fine job of laying out the theories and explanations about what happened to the 60s counter culture. My own view is that it was a utopian development in life style, music, and politics [1965 - 1967] that was mostly left alone by the big government and the big capitalists. In '67 both repression, infiltration and co-option set in and never left. The elite mistake of leaving us alone will never be repeated.

The 3rd Page: This is a very astute remark and for quite a while we did have an odd-ball socio/illigit carte blanche with our activites. Can you pin-point any specific events that in essence 'blew our cover'?

Stew: It's hard to pinpoint this. I know the tendency of radical white cultural rebels to support the Panthers and other militant Black groups convinced J. Edgar Hoover to bring CoIntelpro's reprssive power on them (us) in 1968. Also I think the Pentagon demonstration of 1967 played a part and Chicago '68 riots cinched the deal.

I guess with the music, it started with the Jefferson Airplane getting a big advance and record contract. They were nervous about making so much money that they gave a lot of it away to political and cultural causes but the die had already been cast. The counter culture then lost its independent spirit and imagination. And doesn't this always happen to utopias that function in a capitalist/bureaucratic environment? Utopias manage to change the mass of society by just a bit or two and then they fail. Everyone shakes their head and says "Oh what a childish waste of time that was. I'm so much older now." I believe that without utopias, nothing good would ever happen.

Joe: You mentioned the Yippie Yenta pact. I've read up as much as I could on the subject, and know of the protest joined with the elderly and Allen Ginsberg's symbolic marriage of the young and old, but I have not come across any mention of the pact. Could you elaborate on it for me?

Stew: Yippie Yenta Pact is a term some Yippie journalists coined to describe the friendly relations that developed between many old folk in Miami Beach in 1972 and the Yippies. When the Yippies first showed up in Miami Beach, the press played up how the old folks were frightened of us --but I spoke at a Senior Citizens meeting and was very well received. Then we went on to organize beach picnics of Yippies and old people -- Abbie read a poem he wrote in Yiddish and its English title was Nixon Enough.

The 3rd Page: Was Abbie's poem ever published?

Stew: Yes, in the book Vote, co-authored by Abbie, Jerry and Ed Sanders. Its Yiddish title was Nixon Genug.

Joe: Would you consider Allen Ginsberg's attempt to levitate the Pentagon a Yippie activity? I've seen sources of him and Abbie Hoffman being there, but I haven't found any documentation of other Yips there.

Stew: Sure, Allen was close to the Yippies -- there were lots of Yippies at the levitation. Jerry was there, I was there and Ed Sanders of The Fugs played a very big part in the event.

Joe: Can you tell me the main differences between the Diggers and the Yippies? Also, my book says that the Yippies were established in 1968, but you've stated that the Yippies were active before this. How can you reconcile these two statements?

Stew: Your questions require complicated answers. The Diggers started out in the Bay Area of CA in the mid 60's -- I can say that there were no profound differences in the Diggers and Yippies - although the Diggers concentrated more on neighborhood issues and the Yippies - worked more on the national and global level. They were so close that at first Abbie and the others called themselves Diggers. Another serious difference developed later when the Yippies developed famous media figures such as Abbie and Jerry Rubin. The Diggers frowned on this form of leadership. It's true that the name Yippie was coined in 1968 by Paul Krassner -- but "Yippie" type actions really started taking place a few years earlier. So it leads to some confusion. For instance, we like to think of throwing money at the Stock Exchange as a great Yippie action, but actually, it took place in 1967 and at the time we didn't call ourselves Yippies.

But hey, what's in a name?